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  1. #1
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    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    Just take a look. I saw this in MH and went to the web site. This guy looks amazing.

    www.endurance50.com

  2. #2

    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    I don't even need to open the link to know that this is the guy who is almost single-handedly teaching every endurance athlete in Boston how to train the wrong way. I'm thinking about ranting about it in my next newsletter.

    He just hired Carmichael, though, so it should be getting better.

  3. #3
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    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    Quote Originally Posted by "Eric Cressey":2rmflus9
    I don't even need to open the link to know that this is the guy who is almost single-handedly teaching every endurance athlete in Boston how to train the wrong way. I'm thinking about ranting about it in my next newsletter.

    He just hired Carmichael, though, so it should be getting better.
    Come on, give us the scoop.

  4. #4

    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    Quote Originally Posted by "Eric Cressey":2q0lj1e6
    I don't even need to open the link to know that this is the guy who is almost single-handedly teaching every endurance athlete in Boston how to train the wrong way. I'm thinking about ranting about it in my next newsletter.
    Please do...we need to learn from the experts how to do it the right way

  5. #5
    Physicsmazz
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    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    He's not about showing how to do things proper, he's about showing that it can be done. The things he's done show how amazing our bodies can be.

  6. #6
    Administrator Roland Denzel's Avatar
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    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    The right way is not to do it at all.

    But, if you're going to, I'd like you to know the right way, I suppose...

  7. #7

    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    I'd like to hear about the "right way" as well, seeing I'm in the middle of marathon training.

  8. #8

    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    I'd assume the right way to do it is not to run 1300 miles in 50 days... I wonder how many shoes he'll go thru before he's done.

  9. #9

    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    That much volume can't really be healthy.

  10. #10

    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    The sucky thing is - since Dean Karnazes is probably the most famous endurance runner out there, he is getting a ton of recognition. But he's not the first one to do this...

    Sam Thompson is a marathoner who just finished 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days, although he got no recognition, no sponsors, no nothing. And he was running these to create awareness for the victims of Katrina that still need help rebuilding. He went very under the radar, and actually ran one of his marathons with Dean in Atlanta. Check out his times and stuff here: www.50in50in50.com

    E

  11. #11
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    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    It may not be Dean Karnazes who Eric is thinking of as the bad trainer in Boston. Karnazes lives in California, and as far as I've ever heard is not a trainer.

    EricM, I'm glad you pointed out the first guy to really achieve this feat. I couldn't remember his name offhand. It's too bad he didn't get more recognition for this accomplishment, especially considering he did it during the Summer! I didn't hear a thing about him when he ran the marathon course in Birmingham.

  12. #12

    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    I'm sure there are right and wrong ways to properly train for a marathon, but things like this or the people who do the ultra marathons are just doing things to see how far the human body (and psyche) can be pushed.

  13. #13

    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    Yeah Dave, Dean is brilliant, and I've seen a lot of his training plans, and he trains in the same mind set that Eric likes to teach, ie it's not how long you can run, but how fast you can go over a set distance. And his distances are sometimes 100 miles or more. He's smart, as is Carmichael. I'm sure it's not the guy Eric is thinking about in Boston.

    E

  14. #14

    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    Whether he intends to do so or not, he's gotten a TON of people into the mindset that longer is better. I didn't realize how bad it had gotten until I got up here to Boston and found out the every housewife worships him like he's the messiah.

    Read the article about him October's Runner's World.

    62.4% for a lactate threshold is pathetic! Anyone who takes this guy's old advice is on the fast track to running 15-hour marathons. Research from Weltman et al. (1995) showed that lactate threshold occurs at 80-90% HRR in trained individuals and at 50-60% HRR in untrained individuals. This guy only qualifies as "moderately trained." He'll teach you how to run lots of marathons, but never help you win one.

    The worst part is that he'll go from low 60s to low 80s in a matter of a few months, get much faster, and Carmichael will look like a genius and make hundreds of thousands of dollars off this. The truth is that even a novice student of exercise physiology could take a look at those two numbers and tell you what this guy needs to do: go harder instead of going longer!

    One more reason that if you want to learn to play tennis, you ought to go to Roger Federer's coach and not Roger Federer. Football? Bill Bellichek, not Tom Brady. Basketball? Phil Jackson, not Kobe.

    Popular belief is that LT steady-state and interval work should not comprise more than 10-20% of total weekly training volume. I feel that it could go a bit higher - closer to 30-40%. Where most coaches go wrong is that they mistake volume for frequency, meaning that if they do ten sessions in a week, they'll do 1-2 sessions total of LT steady-state and interval work. Volume is basically distance, so they're really probably only working at 5% because of the sheer duration of low-intensity steady-state stuff. Lactate threshold (although I'm not really keen on the term) is generally agreed upon as the gold standard for assessing endurance performance now (in the past, it's been VO2max).

    As a little frame of reference, Jon's (my Ironman guy) VO2max (treadmill) before we started working together was 50.6, and his lactate threshold was at 65%. Six months later, he was at 73 for his VO2max (cycle) and 83% for his LT. Granted, he's a better cyclist, so that will inflate improvements a bit, but it was a better indicator for us because he's got the best chance of making it big as a cyclist exclusively.

    He does a lot more interval and LT SS work than your "traditional" endurance guy. Given the timetable, though, we just didn't have quite enough time to stretch him out with more volume, and that's why he petered out on the run a bit (and his old knee issue acted up about eight miles into the run portion). It wouldn't surprise me at all if he's at 80 and 87% now, as the last test was in December.

    Interesting aside: In Jon's own words, "That all occurred in a matter of 6 months. Outside of that being normal progression for someone dedicated to training, Carbolin 19 does help speed up the process; something that Biotest fails to advertise."

    I think that what Dean is doing is GREAT in that he's motivating people to exercise, but I think he could be doing a much better job of relating that training like him won't prepare you for DIFFERENT goals.

    (and, as a little aside, Carmichael has told him to a) do more intervals, b) do more LT steady-state, and c) gain some body fat.)

  15. #15
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    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    Eric,

    This is the crux of the never-ending debate about high-mileage/low intensity versus lower mileage/higher intensity marathon training plans on the running forums. It seems like the best recreational marathoners are those who build up a huge base of high mileage endurance and then shift into a pre-marathon period with a lot more high intensity running. However, most people can't handle 90-100 miles per week for training and likely come closer to meeting their goals with fewer miles that include more quality, hard running.

    I know a guy in his late 40's who has run several sub-3:00 marathons and only trains 3 days per week: one long run, a series of 800-meter repeats at the track, and a tempo/LT run.

  16. #16
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    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    P.S. I didn't know people were trying to look to Dean K. for training ideas. There can't be many who plan to run 100 miles in the Mojave Desert during the Summer or any of the other outlandish things the ultra-marathon guys do.

  17. #17

    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    Quote Originally Posted by "BamaDave":1f5m6o05
    P.S. I didn't know people were trying to look to Dean K. for training ideas. There can't be many who plan to run 100 miles in the Mojave Desert during the Summer or any of the other outlandish things the ultra-marathon guys do.
    You'd be surprised; people aren't as bright as we'd like to hope!

  18. #18

    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    Quote Originally Posted by "BamaDave":19f9mkno
    Eric,

    This is the crux of the never-ending debate about high-mileage/low intensity versus lower mileage/higher intensity marathon training plans on the running forums. It seems like the best recreational marathoners are those who build up a huge base of high mileage endurance and then shift into a pre-marathon period with a lot more high intensity running. However, most people can't handle 90-100 miles per week for training and likely come closer to meeting their goals with fewer miles that include more quality, hard running.

    I know a guy in his late 40's who has run several sub-3:00 marathons and only trains 3 days per week: one long run, a series of 800-meter repeats at the track, and a tempo/LT run.
    I never understood the logic in destroying all your fast twitch fibers just in time to focus on training that will develop them (and the neuromuscular efficiency you need to recruit them).

    Then again, the endurance training community is still "debating" whether or not resistance training is important. Sad but true...

  19. #19

    50 Marathons, 50 States, 50 Days

    WHAT?!!?

    I have to lift weights?

    Next you'll be telling me I have to eat correctly as well.

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